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> Pot-Shots, Creators attacking, parodying peers work
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jefferson l.o.b sergeant
post Jun 16 2004, 04:08 AM
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QUOTE (Ethan Van Sciver @ Jun 15 2004, 10:36 PM)
Thanks Bruno! The other thing that I remember was J Scott Campbell's parody on Dan Fraga and Rob Liefeld in Gen 13. I wish I still had it. It'd go straight into my 90's Image collection. Anyhow, I think it had some characters with tiny hoofs for feet and a hundred teeth. And something about Fraga-Boom's concert being cancelled due to lack of interest. There was a war going back and forth between some of Extreme and some of Wildstorm. Fraga wrote in his comic that the WildCATS animated series had been cancelled due to lack of interest also. I worried that comics might become gangsta rap.

Fortunately, cooler heads prevailed.

I know that Campbell and Liefeld frequent the boards. it would be great to hear their view of the rivalry now in retrospect. I'd really like to know if it's true that Campbell challenged Liefeld to a streetfight and rob backed out. msn-wink.gif
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jefferson l.o.b sergeant
post Jun 16 2004, 04:35 AM
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SUPERMAN vs THE ELITE in action comics, was pretty much a statement about the viability of the premier icon in comics in the presence of harder and more realistic characters such as the AUTHORITY. I think it was a shot at both Ellis and Millars runs.

In a related point i've heard that Waid had a potential Ellis/Hitch produced JLA/AUTHORITY crossover run into the ground. Maybe that laid the groundwork for the aforementioned Action Comics storyline.
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joespam
post Jun 16 2004, 05:30 AM
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QUOTE (Sheldon Allen @ Jun 15 2004, 06:43 AM)
QUOTE (Won Kim @ Jun 15 2004, 06:35 AM)
Eric Larsen (Savage Dragon, Image) had some kinda' beef with Peter David (Hulk, Aquaman) bacl om the 90's, and this resulted in some fun bits in Savage Dragon comics.    Dragon takes his foul mouthed, ex hooker, Electro-type superpowered girlfriend to an expensive restaurant.  She starts mouthing off during dinner.  A fat, bearded and balding Peter David look a like (in the background) starts complaining, calling her out.  She curses him out: fat jokes a plenty. 

He replies,.. "I've never been so insulted". 

Her reply: "You must not get out much fatboy"

T'was pretty funny.

Compared to some of the fireworks in the letter columns of those early issue of Dragon, this scene at the restaurant was actually one of the more tame disses of David on Larsen's part shocking.gif .

There are a lot of commentaries in Savage Dragon - The back-and-forth between PAD and Larsen was pretty interesting to watch. The two went back and forth on stories the others had done.

In the pages of Hulk, I believe it was the issue where he's invited back to Vegas, he faces a ranting Doc Oc. Apparently in a Spider Man story, Larsen had the doc pummel the Hulk unconscious by holding him off the ground so that he couldn't get any purchase to get free, and then just swing away. PAD thought this was crap and so as the Doc rants about how he beat the hulk once, Hulk flicks the doc away with one finger, ending the fight.

Another time in Dragon, Larsen had a black supporting cast member in danger of dying from AIDS and request a blood transfusion from Dragon in the hopes that the healing properties would cure him, or at least prevent him from dying. Dragon immediately says yes because "what kind of asshole would stand by and do nothing to help a dying friend?" (paraphrase) This was in direct response to an identical situation in the Hulk, where Hulk agonized about it and finally decided against it. Reasonable considering that's how we got She Hulk. But what Larsen really didn't like was that Hulk pretended to give the friend his blood for the transfusion, so the guy died thinking it didn't work rather than knowing that Hulk didn't want to risk creating another Hulk.

A few others. Larsen took on the classic Spider Slayer story by having a hostile-to-Dragon newspaper editor named R. Richard Richards contract someone to build a giant robot which he could use to remote control kill Dragon. Like the original story, Richards voice and face announced the plan. Dragon defeats the robot, and Richards goes to jail, unlike the original where JJJ faced no repercussions. I see that one more as a commentary on whacky old-school comics than a particular dig at Stan Lee, though.

Two more.

There was a character in Dragon called Arachnid who had been abduction children and sucking them dry for years. It was a subtle dig on the state of the Spider-man comics at the time.

He later showed up with a new haircut and glasses calling himself "Ultimate Arachnid" biggrin.gif

Oh, and the Nixed Men were a take on Byrne's Next Men.
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Pete Mortensen
post Jun 16 2004, 05:45 AM
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And let's not forget that Hitman killed Youngblood in the first issue of his ongoing series, then wasted Shadowhawk (Nightfist) not long after. Garth hates superheroes, and he really hated the early image ones.


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J. Scott Campbell
post Jun 16 2004, 07:25 AM
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QUOTE
I know that Campbell and Liefeld frequent the boards. it would be great to hear their view of the rivalry now in retrospect. I'd really like to know if it's true that Campbell challenged Liefeld to a streetfight and rob backed out.


What?!? This is the first I've ever heard of that story. As much as I wish an urban legend like that were true, it's completely false. And as much as I'd hate to admit it, I'm pretty sure Rob would kick my sorry ass in a "streetfight".

It's really hilarious seeing those old Gen 13 panels again. To be honest, I've never held any real animosity personally towards Rob. Our two studios did however share a, what I would call, playful rivalry. In particular, Dan Fraga and I were sort of pitted against each other for a while. We took a few shots at each other in our comics over the years. All of us at Wildstorm used to fax Dan when we busted him swiping somebody's art. Yeah, in Gen 13 #1 of the regular series, I put up a poster in the background of a club that read that "Fraga-Boom's" concert had been cancelled due to an "overwhelming lack of interest." That was a burn since Dan had indeed started a short side stint as a rapper. (I'm not kidding, that really happened.) In turn, I was killed in an issue of Dan's comic Black Flag, although far fewer saw that issue due to "overwhelming lack of interest." (sorry Dan it was too easy.) Later it was fun to spoof Extreme Studios hardships in Gen 13 #13, but I gotta say, I was also put up to it quite a bit from my studio mates. All in all, Dan Fraga is a good guy, and it was all just kidding around.

I also drew my long time friend Joe Benitez, formerly of Top Cow, in Gen 13 #3. He was one of the pirates who asked Freefall if there was "Any Cheese" in the stew she made. This was in reference to the fact that all of us around the studio called Joe "The Cheese!", a name he is still not real fond of today. He even bleeds cheese blood in issue #5 when he gets it. Joe then got me back when he drew me as some kind of retarded character who talked to a puppet in the pages of his book "Weapon Zero".

Also in the early days of Wildstorm, when Brandon Peterson joined the studio to work with Marc Silvestri, we mocked up a fake comic book cover called "Cyber-Mouth", a spoof of Marc's then comic "Cyber-Force", on account of we all thought that the guy couldn't stop talking. I believe there are still bootleg copies of that one being passed around at cons. Ah, fun times.

J. Scott
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Elvis Lee
post Jun 16 2004, 09:07 AM
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Hey J. - that is some funny stuff...I'm sure all of us would like to see Cyber Mouth and where is Fraga these days and Benitez?

And what happened to your Girls and Monsters line???
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DaveCummings
post Jun 16 2004, 02:35 PM
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QUOTE (Logan Roop @ Jun 15 2004, 04:56 PM)
QUOTE (Eduardo @ Jun 15 2004, 04:21 PM)
QUOTE (MAliChoudhury-cactusmaac @ Jun 15 2004, 10:05 AM)
Anyway the most hilarious pot-shot I've seen when was Bendis used John Byrne as one of the victims in Powers, the arc where his Superman knock-off goes on a rampage.

I think it was worse when he used him in the Powers: "Who killed Madman" story from the Oni Special. The giant living Ego planet and all that.

Brian had a couple really great swipes at himself and Oeming in that story too.
Particularly the "how many times can they get away with drawing this same panel" swipe at the begining and the awesome page of Bendis-log.

I loved that issue. Bendis poked fun at alot of his friends as well. There is a stab at Kabuki, a stab at Red Star, and a stab at The Nocturnals. All of which creators are friends of Bendis and Oeming. Also there is a little stab at Oni in general, with all the characters popping up and getting pissed when Deena from Powers asked where's Jay and Silent Bob (this was after Kevin Smith taking his View Askew books from Oni to Image)

I know, Chris Gossett and Team Red Star had a "revenge" issue in the next year's Oni color special, mainly focusing on the rather infamous picture of Bendis from when he used to have hair (It's so fun to tease Bendis with that on his boards, I like to give him shit by posting images of young Bendis with hair that is posted on his brother's website)

But, Bendis also likes to give little jabs on his letter column at Shi.

I remember he liked to make jokey jabs at Drew Hayes (poison Elves) until David Mack started jokingly telling him that Drew Hayes was looking to hurt him. The whole thing is all in Bendis' collection of short stories and such (Total Sell Out) I recommend that. I mean, it's worth it for his humor stories and his short story written by Warren Ellis (Better Living through Chemistry).

I love seeing the playful stabs at each other, like with the Image Studios remarks before things got ugly with the whole Liefeld thing or Joe Quesada's playful jabs that he's been doing since his Event Comics days. I love it because it can take the air out of the seriousness that some people try to put into the comic industry.

~Dave
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MAliChoudhury-cactusmaac
post Jun 16 2004, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (M Reynard @ Jun 15 2004, 09:53 PM)

I thought KINGDOM COME was more a ripoff of Moore's TWILIGHT OF THE SUPERHEROES proposal. But, yeah, that anti-early Image sentiment was there, too.


Nah, Ross said he only got to read the Twilight proposal once Kingdom Come was finished and done. He came up with KC's plot and took it to James Robinson who was approached to be the writer and who then told Ross about Moore's draft. Ross has said KC was more a rip-off of Miracleman (and I suspect Squadron Supreme) than anything else.


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Christian U
post Jun 16 2004, 06:09 PM
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I was always a bit troubled by the thought that the wimpy poet guy in the Cassady one-shot in Preacher looked a
QUOTE
lot
like Gaiman.

If that was on purpose, it doesn't seem very nice. Ah well dry.gif
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Brenz
post Jun 16 2004, 06:27 PM
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QUOTE (Pete Mortensen @ Jun 16 2004, 05:45 AM)
Garth hates superheroes, and he really hated the early image ones.

"I don't hate superheroes. I hate that they dominate the industry. It's a damn shame." --Garth


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Ben Scarlett
post Jun 16 2004, 07:04 PM
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QUOTE (joespam @ Jun 16 2004, 05:30 AM)

There are a lot of commentaries in Savage Dragon - The back-and-forth between PAD and Larsen was pretty interesting to watch. The two went back and forth on stories the others had done.

In the pages of Hulk, I believe it was the issue where he's invited back to Vegas, he faces a ranting Doc Oc. Apparently in a Spider Man story, Larsen had the doc pummel the Hulk unconscious by holding him off the ground so that he couldn't get any purchase to get free, and then just swing away. PAD thought this was crap and so as the Doc rants about how he beat the hulk once, Hulk flicks the doc away with one finger, ending the fight.

Yeah that was in the "Revenge Of The Sinister Six" story that ran from Spider-Man 18 (or around that, read the issue recently!)

The funny thing is, Hulk flicks Electro away in the issue, but Doc Ock absolutely batters him to within an inch of his life with his new adamantium arms (or something alone those lines), they face off a few issues later with Hulk saying that Ock got a few sucker punches in to win their first fight. Ock just pulls out a huge gun and blows him away, making it 2-0 to Ock.

I think it's a glass Sandman that eventually takes Ock down...


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Sheldon Allen
post Jun 16 2004, 07:10 PM
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QUOTE (Ben Scarlett @ Jun 16 2004, 07:04 PM)
QUOTE (joespam @ Jun 16 2004, 05:30 AM)

There are a lot of commentaries in Savage Dragon - The back-and-forth between PAD and Larsen was pretty interesting to watch. The two went back and forth on stories the others had done.

In the pages of Hulk, I believe it was the issue where he's invited back to Vegas, he faces a ranting Doc Oc. Apparently in a Spider Man story, Larsen had the doc pummel the Hulk unconscious by holding him off the ground so that he couldn't get any purchase to get free, and then just swing away. PAD thought this was crap and so as the Doc rants about how he beat the hulk once, Hulk flicks the doc away with one finger, ending the fight.

Yeah that was in the "Revenge Of The Sinister Six" story that ran from Spider-Man 18 (or around that, read the issue recently!)

The funny thing is, Hulk flicks Electro away in the issue, but Doc Ock absolutely batters him to within an inch of his life with his new adamantium arms (or something alone those lines), they face off a few issues later with Hulk saying that Ock got a few sucker punches in to win their first fight. Ock just pulls out a huge gun and blows him away, making it 2-0 to Ock.

I think it's a glass Sandman that eventually takes Ock down...

Speaking of Savage Dragon in Issue #2 with the ninja Turtles there's a Vanguard backup story in which he kills some of the Marvel U.'s top heroes.

Damn! All of this Dragon talk is going to make me dig out those old early issues. Those things were classic.


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jefferson l.o.b sergeant
post Jun 17 2004, 03:01 AM
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I wonder if there was any subtle jabs between wolfman and claremont during the height of the TEEN TITANS
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jefferson l.o.b sergeant
post Jun 17 2004, 03:03 AM
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and X-MEN rivalry in the early to mid eighties.
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DavidMack
post Jun 17 2004, 04:20 AM
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Hey friends,

That Oni special was a great one. I have the original art page that Oeming drew where Deena and Christian interview Kabuki and Oeming is sort of aping and poking at some quirks in one of my Kabuki art styles. It was a hilarious page.

And I remember that Drew Hayes thing. It is in one of Bendis' books. Maybe TRUE CRIME CONFESSIONS.

I think it was that told Brian that Drew would be a sport about it. I knew Drew and Brian didn't. And at the time, Drew's look was a long haired, bearded sort of burly motorcyle gang look to him. So Bendis had the idea of poking at him in the letters collumn and I encouraged it.
And then Drew showed up at a con growling and ranting at Brian and Drew's physical demeanor really took Brian by surprise which I think he cronicles in his book.

I also have the original art pages from Powers where the introduce a "Detective David Mack". And then Oeming proceeds to draw me for an entire story arc.

And remember that Powers arc they had where Warren Ellis does a ride along?

And here is something that I don't think is necasarily a poke, but it occured to me when I was having a dinner with Neil Gaiman and noticed that he has exactly the same distinct tooth as Spider Jerusulam. I only read the Transmet that I did art for and a couple early issues, so forgive me if this is common knowledge. But it made me think that Spider incorporated Gaiman's tooth, Alan Moore's bearded look when we first meet Spider in the first issue, and Grant Morrison's look when he is shaved bald. As an amalgam of the UK writer's in Ellis' stomping grounds. The entire thing occured to me when I was sitting next to Neil and noticed his tooth as we were eating sushi, so it could be nothing or it could be common knowledge that I am not hip to. But the tooth is exact, and made me think that Warren had to do it on purpose.
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Mark Gonzales
post Jun 17 2004, 04:28 AM
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QUOTE (J. Scott Campbell @ Jun 16 2004, 07:25 AM)
QUOTE
I know that Campbell and Liefeld frequent the boards. it would be great to hear their view of the rivalry now in retrospect. I'd really like to know if it's true that Campbell challenged Liefeld to a streetfight and rob backed out.


What?!? This is the first I've ever heard of that story. As much as I wish an urban legend like that were true, it's completely false. And as much as I'd hate to admit it, I'm pretty sure Rob would kick my sorry ass in a "streetfight".

It's really hilarious seeing those old Gen 13 panels again. To be honest, I've never held any real animosity personally towards Rob. Our two studios did however share a, what I would call, playful rivalry. In particular, Dan Fraga and I were sort of pitted against each other for a while. We took a few shots at each other in our comics over the years. All of us at Wildstorm used to fax Dan when we busted him swiping somebody's art. Yeah, in Gen 13 #1 of the regular series, I put up a poster in the background of a club that read that "Fraga-Boom's" concert had been cancelled due to an "overwhelming lack of interest." That was a burn since Dan had indeed started a short side stint as a rapper. (I'm not kidding, that really happened.) In turn, I was killed in an issue of Dan's comic Black Flag, although far fewer saw that issue due to "overwhelming lack of interest." (sorry Dan it was too easy.) Later it was fun to spoof Extreme Studios hardships in Gen 13 #13, but I gotta say, I was also put up to it quite a bit from my studio mates. All in all, Dan Fraga is a good guy, and it was all just kidding around.

I also drew my long time friend Joe Benitez, formerly of Top Cow, in Gen 13 #3. He was one of the pirates who asked Freefall if there was "Any Cheese" in the stew she made. This was in reference to the fact that all of us around the studio called Joe "The Cheese!", a name he is still not real fond of today. He even bleeds cheese blood in issue #5 when he gets it. Joe then got me back when he drew me as some kind of retarded character who talked to a puppet in the pages of his book "Weapon Zero".

Also in the early days of Wildstorm, when Brandon Peterson joined the studio to work with Marc Silvestri, we mocked up a fake comic book cover called "Cyber-Mouth", a spoof of Marc's then comic "Cyber-Force", on account of we all thought that the guy couldn't stop talking. I believe there are still bootleg copies of that one being passed around at cons. Ah, fun times.

J. Scott
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Do you know what happen to Joe Benitez?


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sam
post Jun 17 2004, 04:42 AM
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QUOTE (Brenz @ Jun 16 2004, 06:27 PM)
QUOTE (Pete Mortensen @ Jun 16 2004, 05:45 AM)
Garth hates superheroes, and he really hated the early image ones.

"I don't hate superheroes. I hate that they dominate the industry. It's a damn shame." --Garth
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M Reynard
post Jun 17 2004, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE (MAliChoudhury-cactusmaac @ Jun 16 2004, 03:01 PM)
QUOTE ( M Reynard @ Jun 15 2004, 09:53 PM)

I thought KINGDOM COME was more a ripoff of Moore's TWILIGHT OF THE SUPERHEROES proposal.  But, yeah, that anti-early Image sentiment was there, too.


Nah, Ross said he only got to read the Twilight proposal once Kingdom Come was finished and done. He came up with KC's plot and took it to James Robinson who was approached to be the writer and who then told Ross about Moore's draft. Ross has said KC was more a rip-off of Miracleman (and I suspect Squadron Supreme) than anything else.

Hmmm...didn't Waid and Ross also later fight over who contributed morte to the story?

And, at least in my opinion, there are some very suspiocious similarities between the TWILIGHT OF THE SUPERHEROES proposal and KINGDOM COME. Too many to be ignored, in fact.


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post Jun 17 2004, 05:33 AM
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I dunno, man... Ross is usually prety frank when discussing what he's riffing on, paying homage to or, honestly, stealing from. He has cited Squadron Supreme, Miracleman, and Superduperman from the original Mad comics as sources for KC. He's also outspoken about being a fan of Moore, so I really think it was parallel evolution.


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post Jun 17 2004, 05:50 AM
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David, I believe the look for Spider Jerusalem was actually taken from this guy, pretty much straight up, and I also believe it was Darick Robertson's idea (the guy was possibly a friend of his? Dunno...)


Spider Model: Andre

I don't think that he originally had the glasses or tattoo.

Nick
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