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CyberGhostface Stranger
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 12:21 am Post subject: Mack Using Kingpin |
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I posted this on SHH before, regarding Mack's usage of Kingpin in his current 'Vision Quest' arc...
'This is probably just me, and its probably nothing to get concerned about, but I'm not real happy with Mack using Kingpin in his latest arc. But besides that, I'm enjoying the arc so far even though I liked Parts of a Hole better.
I think the way Bendis left Kingpin off at the end of #50 was a great way to end his character for a while. Yet in 52 Kingpin appears to have a confrontation with Echo.
I know this is not like Kingpin's breaking out to battle DD, but to me its sort've like if Zeb Wells had Green Goblin pop in for a cameo in his fill in run right after Jenkins effectively closed the book on a certain character.
(And yes, I realize Echo's character has a lot to do with Mr.Fisk, but I thought Mack could have done a self contained arc about Echo trying to find a place for herself without dragging in KP.)'
Someone else wrote in a later topic...
'The other complaint was that apparently in the next issue we will be seeing Kingpin. This upsets me very greatly as I was hoping issue 50 would be the last time we would see Kingpin for a very very long time, and that the last time we should see him for at least 2 years should be beaten and bloodied and at the feet of Matt Murdock in Josie's Bar. But Mack has taken away that great send off moment from me as well.'
Its not that Mack doesn't write a good Kingpin, he did a great one in the much better 'Parts of a Hole' arc, but I just think Mack using Kingpin in his arc takes away from the finality in #50.
Thoughts? |
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edq13 Junior Member

Joined: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 392 Location: the arrow-cave... waxing the arrow-car
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 12:26 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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i guess i see your point, but fisk was directly responsible for maya's father's death, thus leading her to where she is in life today. i don't think you could tell her story without fisk...
it'd be like luke skywalker confronting his past without going head to head with vader... they're just too interconnected...
(fuck, did i just try and prove a comic book point by referencing star wars? i'll never see a woman naked again as long as i live...) |
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MACK! Stranger
Joined: 27 Sep 2003 Posts: 21
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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First of all, thanks for reading my work.
Here is some feedback that may be helpful to you, and some considerations that reflect points others have mentioned.
It's not like I have Kinpin busting out of jail or something. Echo visits him in Rykers to have a discussion. It doesn't negate any of issue 50. It just shows that he's put away and out of DD's life.
I'm glad you liked the Kingpin stuff I wrote in parts of a hole. It was my favorite part of the story. It gave KP more of an origin than he ever had before and I felt like I pretty much said my piece with him.
However, when I was asked to do this Echo story I was asked to include a few points in the story.
I was asked to do an Echo story that:
1)Focuses on her background and childhood, and childhood relationship with KP, and background of her father's heritage.
2)Flesh out her perspective of growing up deaf and refining her talents.
3)Include a scene in which she resolves her issues with the Kingpin.
4)Include a scene in which she comes to terms with her issues with DD.
5)Have her find her new role in life.
All of this seemed to make sense to me and I saw no reason to not include all of these points that the editor felt were important.
Keep in mind that I wrote the entire five issue story over a year ago. (Way before I even knew that the Echo story would be in the DD series).
As I've stated in all the interviews long before it came out, I was originally asked to write an Echo series. Joe wanted to see Echo's back ground fleshed out and see her interact with someone else in the Marvel Universe and he suggested Wolverine. The meeting with Wolverine is meant to be a surprise that fits into the context of the story. Originally I was told to not include DD in the story at all. And it was six issues. When it was decided to put the Echo story in DD to give Bendis and Maleeve time to catch up, I was told to cut the story from 6 issues to 5 and also to add some scenes with DD and KP. Which I did over a year ago. No big deal.
I understand that there are certain scheduling and marketing concerns that companies have.
So would it have been better as a stand alone graphic novel or as a mini? Or with no ads? Who knows. I'm not in charge of the marketing and scheduling and publishing format. I don't do a lot of work for hire, but when I do, I understand that my job is to do the story I need to do within the realities asked of me.
I know that some of this is off topic from your point and it is not directed at you personally, but I've seen these points raised and figure I might as well give a some real info. It is funny that when some people don’t know the facts, instead of giving you the benefit of the doubt, they give you the blame for something that rubs them the wrong way. I've seen a few posts that cracked me up, so I might as well mention it here. Here goes:
I'm glad to see that this story has generated so much discussion. Some people are going to find it challenging at first because you need to chew it up and digest it on your own. It's not meant to be something you swallow whole without thinking about. I’ve heard a lot of the stories of readers who tried to read it like another comic at first and had trouble interfacing with it on the first read, then love it after repeat readings.
I got this kind of thing with Kabuki when it first came out. Some people were upset that it was unconventional and unpredictable and they couldn't see what the point of some things in it were. Then two years later they would read the entire story and fall in love with it and not understand why it was so disturbing to them the first time.
My 2 cents is that you are not supposed to know why or how each scene or approach fits into the story as you read it. That kind of thing is obvious at the end and is the charm of revelation and the joy of repeat readings. A lot of us are so used to the same story and plot, and plot devices in every movie and always understanding why they are there that we are tricked into thinking that is the right way or only way of doing something. I write character motivated plot not plot motivated characters.
If you read this story with an open mind and view it as its own creature, there is a lot to get out of it. If people read it thinking it is going to fit into a cookie cutter mold of any of the other Marvel books they are going to be blind to all the things that are actually happening.
Just a note I figured I’d throw out that may be helpful or informative to some readers.
Kindest regards,
David |
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w_cote Enthusiast

Joined: 26 Aug 2003 Posts: 722 Location: Iraq
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 2:03 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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MACKS! such a nice guy
keep up the great work
the best thing about the current daredevil arc is i can reread it and see or read something that i missed the first 2 or 3 times
ReRead Value is awsome
One of the comics my dad sends me on a regular basis  _________________ I LIKE EGGS! |
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edq13 Junior Member

Joined: 13 Aug 2003 Posts: 392 Location: the arrow-cave... waxing the arrow-car
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 2:08 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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i posted this in one of the other DD threads, but i'll repeat myself here (cause i like to hear myself talk...):
i LOVE the fact that it takes me half an hour to read and absorb one issue of mack's daredevil... and then i can read it again and enjoy it just as much if not more.
i'm loving this shit out of every singe inch of the mack run.
i've never read any kabuki (i know, i know, shame on me), but now i really, really want to.
BRAVO MACK!
(and BRAV-A to echo!) |
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Señor Fajita New Kid on the Block
Joined: 30 Aug 2003 Posts: 77
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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Quote: | So would it have been better as a stand alone graphic novel or as a mini? Or with no ads? |
hmm, i never thought about that no ads part. it would definatly add to the whole artistic vision of the book i imagine. i think i'm gonna have to get this story in the TPB even though i'm getting the individual issues. |
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wargasm Stranger

Joined: 11 Oct 2003 Posts: 12 Location: Long Island, NY
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 3:19 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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it's great to have a comic take more than 5 minutes to read and recycle for once. it's even better to have a comic that i need to take breaks from and put some thought into before picking it back up. great stuff mr. mack! _________________ It's always funny until someone gets hurt, and then it's just hilarious... |
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gockopunk Junior Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 217 Location: Lansing, MI
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 3:43 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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"i'm gonna have to get this story in the TPB even though i'm getting the individual issues."
I'll probably do the same. I've got friends who I think would be blown away by this story, and TPBs are easier to lend than individual issues. |
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Mike_Johnson Senior Member

Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 1800 Location: Um, east...wait, West...Ya, west that's it. Or maybe it was north?
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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Wow, a response from the MAN himself.
Personally, I don't see the problem and I say let the man use whatever characters he wants. *Speedball*  _________________ Mizzel Jizzel! |
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Twocool4u1 Junior Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 220 Location: oregon
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 4:52 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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i'm waiting to rebuy the HC. hopefully they will put one out. hopefully with wake up! |
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jokerwonga New Kid on the Block
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 93
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 6:14 am Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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And another Mack ass kisser:
Agh! Mack's post is too long and insightful! It doesn't belong on a comic board!
Or maybe I'm just used to one line posts with the word "Speedball" in them...
Interesting to see that DD wasn't originally supposed to be in the book. Though it was well done, it did strike me as out of place.
// Jay |
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CyberGhostface Stranger
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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First off, thanks for taking the time to read and reply to my post.
I don't think having KP negates the ending of #50, but it does sort of take away the finality of it. But I guess I can look upon his scenes as an epilogue of some sorts. I'm not crazy about it, but perhaps my opinion will change after the arc is done.
Are you going to reference the fact that its Echo who started the chain that led to Kingpin's downfall? His blindness is pretty much what caused him to be stabbed and left for dead. |
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Skeletor, Ruler Of Ass Junior Member

Joined: 08 Sep 2003 Posts: 366 Location: Apartment B2, Spring Mill Road, P.O. Box 633 Skeletor Castle, Skeletoria 87140, The Land Of Eternia
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 9:40 pm Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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I still like the idea of no dialogue, all art, but Mr. Mack still makes a pretty convincing arguement about his story.
Even though I don't like Echo/Maya, he IS telling the story he wants to tell, and no one is holding that aganist him. I've gotten over the Wolvie thing, I just thought it was out from left field (which was probably the whole point).
Overall, the story is ok, but art is fucking spectacular. Does anyone know if Mack has any books or anything as simply art books? Just his paintings and his amazing art? If so, let me know. _________________ ALL HAIL SKELETOR!
"It's beautiful, even though it's where everyone died." - Battle Royale |
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Twocool4u1 Junior Member
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 220 Location: oregon
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 9:54 pm Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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he plans on making a kabuki cover art book, but is a low priority project right now. he also has some books called "Kabuki Reflections" that have a bunch of his pre-work not only in Kabuki but in DD and Transmet and some other stuff (Pics of people w/ kabuki tattoos) Browse through it at your comic store. There are 4 of the refelctions books. |
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RCo New Kid on the Block
Joined: 11 Aug 2003 Posts: 50 Location: Cedar Hill, TX
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Posted: Oct 19, 2003 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: Mack Using Kingpin |
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I thought it was cool to see him in Ryker's. It actually show's us that he's in prison for all of the stuff that he did in the last couple of arcs. _________________ Life is only a perception. |
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